Between Two Curators

Jenn Ellis and Cliff Lauson

Join curators Jenn Ellis and Cliff Lauson as their love of all things artistic, inspirational, and creative connects them to amazing people. From art to astrophysics, and food to feng shui, they are on a mission to find out what makes creative people tick.

@jenncellis and @clifflauson are London-based visual arts curators, who were recently nominated for an award for the driest sense of humour.[Artwork: Ambar-Maya Johnsson / Music: Pedro Velasco]

All Episodes

It’s that time again to reflect on the past season’s worth of fabulous and inspiring guests. From wellbeing to community to making sh*t happen, we offer some reflections and favourite moments of inspiration drawn from the many.Support the show (

Nov 2020

39 min 12 sec

Yoga teacher and community builder Jordan Ashley tells us how to travel with a social conscience, live with compassion and kindness, and be of service beyond the pretzel poses. Jordan is founder of Souljourn Yoga Foundation, a charity that runs events and retreats in support of empowering and educating women.@souljournyoga / / jforjordanashley.comSupport the show (

Oct 2020

30 min 37 sec

Dominic tells us about connecting emotions and memories to food, the importance of shopping and eating locally, and how he reinvented the humble scotch egg. Dominic Hamdy is an entrepreneur and restauranteur, and co-founder of London eateries Scotchtails, Lundenwic, and Cripsin.@crispin_e1crispinlondon.comSupport the show (

Oct 2020

31 min 43 sec

Zia Zareem-Slade unpacks the gamut of retail experiences at Fortnum & Mason, from iconic biscuit tins to memorable window displays. As Customer Experience Director of one of Britain's biggest brands, Zia tells us about digital innovation, artistic collaborations, and next-level desserts: champagne popsicles. / @fortnumsFortnum’s Hungry Minds PodcastSupport the show (

Sep 2020

42 min 30 sec

Francesca Anfossi tells us how clay brings people of all ages and skills together, its virtues as a natural substance, and her not-so-secret dream of becoming a chicken lady. Francesca is a ceramicist, facilitator and co-founder of the community hub Rochester Square located in Camden, the show (

Sep 2020

36 min 52 sec

Caryn Coleman makes the case for supporting independent cinema especially during the pandemic, gives visibility to female directors and filmmakers, and tells us why horror films are making a comeback. Caryn is a New York based film programmer, founder of The Future of Film is Female, and Director of Programming/Special Projects at Nitehawk Cinema.@caryncoleman@thefutureoffilmisfemale / / nitehawkcinema.comSupport the show (

Sep 2020

44 min 16 sec

Broadcaster, writer, and social and political commentator Nels Abbey talks to us about creative approaches to addressing racism. He tells us about the importance of following inspirational urges, co-founding a black writers’ guild, and why he quit banking to write a satirical book about surviving and thriving in a white man’s world. T: @nelsabbey / I: @nelsabbeyThink Like a White Mantheblackwritersguild.comSupport the show (

Sep 2020

45 min 40 sec

Wellness workplace guru Christina Disler takes us through the importance of infusing the workday with self-care, integrating mindfulness into the work day, and why free green juice is great but isn’t the leadership answer your staff were looking for. Christina Disler is Founder and CEO of Werk Lab, Editor-in-Chief of The Werk, and a leadership consultant and coach. / / / @werklab  Support the show (

Aug 2020

40 min 57 sec

Serial ethical entrepreneur Jessica Kruger tells about the time when opening a vegan restaurant was a novel concept, how big brands are becoming more sustainable, and the latest innovations in materials made from tasty fruit and veg. Jessica Kruger is founder of LUXTRA, a luxury fashion brand specialising in vegan and sustainable bags and accessories.@luxtralondonluxtralondon.comSupport the show (

Aug 2020

30 min 21 sec

Nico Muhly muses on the rituals of choral and minimalist music, writing for opera vs film, and why it’s a very “Beethoven” time in our lives right now. Nico Muhly is an New-York based composer and collaborator who has written more than 100 works for international concert venues, as well as the opera Marnie (2017), and scored film soundtracks including The Reader (2008) and Gift of Fire (forthcoming) / @nicomuhlyitunes / spotifySupport the show (

Aug 2020

42 min 23 sec

We kick off Season Two with Es Devlin, who let us into her world of mind-blowing visual concepts for events, performances, exhibitions, and concerts. She tells us about her approach to choreographing space, the porosity between digital and physical, and how she built the world’s most literate poetry AI. Es Devlin is a world-renowned designer whose track record of spectacular projects includes the 2012 London Olympics closing ceremony. Es Devlin's Website / @esdevlinBBC Culture in Quarantine MasterclassUK Pavilion, Expo 2021-2, Dubai UAESuperblueSupport the show (

Aug 2020

40 min 2 sec

In this episode, we are without guest! We take a moment to look back and reflect on some of the highlights and shared themes that have emerged from our first ten episodes. From care for others to authentic selves, from tasting culinary delights to fathoming the scale of the universe, we pick our favourite moments of creative ingenuity. @betweentwocurators@clifflauson / / jennellis.comPodcast Artwork: Ambar-Maya JohnssonPodcast Music: Pedro VelascoFeedback and suggestions:  betweentwocurators@gmail.comSupport the show (

Jul 2020

36 min 57 sec

Julian Foddy takes us behind the scenes of major film and TV productions to explain how their visual effects are made. He tells us about “fixing it in post-”, the latest virtual set technology, and how he once got stressed about the size of Spiderman’s shoulder pads. Julian is a VFX Supervisor at Industrial Light and Magic, who has worked on films from the Marvel and Star Wars franchises as well as Ready Player One (2018), Transformers: The Last Knight (2017), and Fast and Furious 6 (2013).Julian’s ILM Profile / Julian’s IMDB Credits@ilmvfxStagecraft and Virtual Production of The MandalorianSupport the show (

Jul 2020

38 min 39 sec

We have an open and frank conversation with Maxsta about the pressures of the music industry, moving beyond “macho rap vibes”, and how to cold-call your idols. Maxsta is a British musician, grime MC, and producer whose unique sound has earned him millions of plays and recent support from the PRS Foundation Momentum Music Fund.Spotify / Apple Music@kingmaxsta@nohatsnohoods Records + MerchMaxstaTV on YouTube (coming soon)Support the show (

Jul 2020

39 min 8 sec

We have a fascinating conversation with Ben Allanach about his quest to find new particles and forces (Z-Primes anyone?) by smashing together other particles, how science is both beautiful and creative, and how he became involved with an intergalactic travel agency. Ben is Professor of Theoretical Physics in the Theoretical High Energy Particle Physics Group at the University of Cambridge, a Visiting Scientist at the CERN Large Hadron Collider, and also a Quantum Selves artist.Ben’s Profile Page at U of CambridgeSupport the show (

Jun 2020

33 min 25 sec

Keshia Hannam is an inspired raconteur - whether it’s speaking at the United Nations, advocating for equality and sustainability, or explaining how to ditch the insurance business and pursue a career you actually love! Keshia leads workshops around the world, facilitating storytelling and vulnerable leadership and the importance of every person's voice. / @keshiahannamSupport the show (

Jun 2020

36 min 10 sec

We chat to Will Wheeler about founding Level Six Studios in Peckham, London, and making yoga accessible to everyone. We also delve into what yoga means off the mat, spirituality in modern practice, plus a little advice on how to find new students in the  /  /  @levelsixpeckham Support the show (

Jun 2020

28 min 29 sec

We take a deep-dive into food with Imogen Kwok: its ability to bring us together, its potential as an artistic medium, and why chefs are obsessed with tweezers. A classically-trained chef with a degree in art history, Imogen successfully combines the two as a food designer, creating event experiences that surprise and delight the senses.@imogenkwokimogenkwok.comSupport the show (

Jun 2020

31 min 18 sec

Creative Chief Officer, Jason Basmajian shares his thoughts on artistic cross-pollination, finding ways of keeping it fresh, and how to be generous when surrounded by fashionistas.Jason has led the creative direction of major fashion brands such as Cerutti, Gieves and Hawkes, and Brioni. Now a freelance consultant, he works across interior design, fashion, visual and performing arts to stylise luxury brands and experiences. Jason also shares mouth-watering recipes and beautifully presented dishes on his YouTube channel Kentish Town Kitchen.@jasonbasmajianSupport the show (

May 2020

36 min 26 sec

Educator, producer, and facilitator Samantha Holdsworth tells us about the downright inspiring creative work she does with young people, how art can be used for social change, and why clowns are not -- repeat, not -- scary.Co-founded with Greg Klerkx in 2006, Nimble Fish creates theatrical productions and public programmes designed to make meaningful impacts in communities across the country. Clowns without Borders UK is a part of an international support network that brings joy, laughter, and emotional relief to children in areas of humanitarian crisis. the show (

May 2020

29 min 56 sec

London-based designer Ab Rogers tells us about his passion for colour, why design and architecture should be fun, and how to cook with toddlers. Ab Rogers Design, London/Melbourne, is an architecture and design practice that has created some of the most imaginative and colourful projects around the world including Comme des Garçons Paris, The Rainbow House, Pizza Express, Wonderfruit Festival Thailand, Maggie’s at The Royal Marsden, as well as numerous art and cultural @abrogersdesign @ab.rogersSupport the show (

May 2020

28 min 31 sec

Just what the heck is curating anyway? In their premiere episode, Jenn and Cliff talk about working with art and artists from two very different career perspectives. With a good dose of humour, they reflect on communicating and facilitating creative ideas, as well as their hopes, aspirations and dreams in episodes to follow. Super casual. Support the show (

May 2020

31 min 49 sec